This interview series is funded by the International Development Research Centre (IDRC) through a project entitled ‘Placement, Preservation and Perseverance: Afghan at-risk Scholars, Students and Activists’ (PPP) based in the Department of Law and Legal Studies at Carleton University
Dr. Huma Saeed works as the Afghanistan Advisor with MADRE, a global women’s rights organization. She is also an affiliated senior researcher at the University of Leuven and an adjunct lecturer at the University of Sant’Anna. With over 20 years of work and research experience in the areas of human rights, women’s rights, and post-conflict justice mechanisms, Dr. Saeed has worked as senior consultant with the UN, the ICC and other international organizations. She has a PhD in criminology (KU Leuven), MA in human rights (LSE) and BA in Political Science (UMBC) with research focus on transitional justice and economic-state crime. She is a published author in international academic journals and books reflecting on her research and experiences on transitional justice, economic-state crime and women and victims’ empowerment.
Nimrokh: Thank you Ms. Saeed for accepting our invitation.
What is your view on the political presence of women in Afghanistan during the twenty year period known as the republic?
Huma Saeed: In my opinion, Afghanistan at that time did not have the necessary social, cultural, economic and historical background for women to take part as much they should have. By early 2001, Afghanistan was affected by several decades of war, which had an especially great impact on women and their political role.
We were in a completely different place. The city of Kabul was in ruins. At first, there was a short-lived hope that the wars would stop and Afghanistan would move towards a democratic state. The international community was apparently very interested and huge amounts of money poured into Afghanistan. But when we are concerned with women’s participation, especially in the political arena, there is need for a shift in the society itself. People’s thoughts have changed to some extent, and most importantly, there are groups or groups of active and contributing women. If we talk consider at the level of society, generalized to the small towns and villages around Afghanistan, the situation there was very complicated, and the women’s contribution to politics was low. Everything we see about women’s rights in Afghanistan is deeply rooted in the context created these last twenty years. But most of the things that were done at the political level had a symbolic aspect. One of the most important justifications for the intervention of the international community in Afghanistan was apparently the issue of the rights and freedom of Afghan women. Therefore, it became more of a technical issue, and ultimately did not lead to real change for women, especially considering all of money that flowed in. All the different institutions and currents that were present in Afghanistan simply abused it.
On the other hand, the political presence of women in the early 2000s was largely related to the participation of jihadis and political parties; the women who took part were mostly representatives of these groups. If we want to talk about the meaningful political presence of women, we must first answer the question of whether such parties truly represented the people. Jihadi parties that had committed such heinous crimes, especially during the civil wars, should have gone to trial. We cannot say women who were politically present on behalf of these parties represented the people of Afghanistan, because the parties did not. Almost every woman who entered politics had to have the support of one of these parties and groups in power. One of Ashraf Ghani’s big claims was that he gave more opportunities to women. The question is, how should the political presence of women be defined? Do you mean political parties led by women? Or does it mean being in government officials or having political awareness at the community level?
In recent years, although the efforts of a limited number should not be underestimated, a number of women have reached a series of positions, in some cases very young and inexperienced. Most of them could not be present without the covert or overt political support from especially jihadi organizations or other powerful figures. The meaningful and active political presence of women was colored by a political atmosphere where, unfortunately, the warlords had regained power, and administrative, financial and political corruption had reached its peak. There was no foundation for women to participate in politics independently. This is the opposite of what we see today. A generation has emerged that may be able to raise voices in an independent and meaningful way and fight for their own goals.
One of the things that we don’t talk about, when we talk about Afghanistan, is the impact of large waves of displacement on human capital. These waves of migration has occurred in every round of war and continues to this day. Usually, elite groups are the first to leave the country. Therefore, every time there has been a war, in addition to many other blows that have been inflicted on Afghanistan, we have lost manpower and human capital in every field. Those who are the intellectuals of the society in the literal sense of the word and who play a role in improving the country have mostly left. In the last wave, after the re-establishment of the Taliban government, a large part of the civil society, human rights activists, press sector, political elites, university professors left. But what is different this time is that some of them have continued their work abroad, such as Nimrokh magazine. Such a thing did not happen in the previous waves of migrations or it was less. This is a positive point. Part of the reason is due to the opportunities that exist in the world today, but the other part is related to the fact that in the twenty years before the country fell again to the Taliban, the atmosphere in Afghanistan raised a generation of young people, including women, who were able to keep pace with global, forward-moving standards.
Nimrokh: It has been two and a half years since the Taliban have been in power again. From the very beginning, especially at the Doha meeting, we have been witnessing those aiming to whitewash the Taliban and suggesting meaningful negotiations with them. How do you see the consequences of such behaviors for women and their movements?
Huma Saeed: The consequence is very clear. The situation that has arisen is systematic, widespread and systemic discrimination based on gender, which can be correctly described by the term “gender apartheid” and defined as gender persecution. It was not paranoia to suggest that Afghan women would be deprived of all their basic rights once again. This fear has become a reality today. But another development, that no one expected, was the resistance of Afghan women from the heart of the society. This shift is a window of hope in the heart of great darkness, which shows society is changing and a platform for women’s voices is being formed. With all the problems in twenty years of the republic, a generation emerged that today refuses to accept their predicament, a generation that studied even at the cost of their lives. A hundred years ago, in Western countries, women also protested because of the deprivation of their basic rights and became political activists. Today’s generation of Afghan women, at least at the level of big cities, has understood that they have to challenge the power to get basic rights. But how to deal with the groups that try to whitewash the Taliban? From the beginning, there were those who saw the Taliban with a critical point of view, especially women from inside Afghanistan. Publications, especially publications related to the issue of women’s rights, such as Nimrokh, can play an effective role in raising awareness and reflecting voices, which is a form of resistance to whitewashing. At the macro level, there are also conferences abroad that mostly Afghan women attend. But we all know that this crowd is limited to a certain few. This is also an issue that has sometimes been challenged by other activists, whether the mentioned few women can truly reflect the current situation in Afghanistan and women’s voices.
Nimrokh: Women and their protest movements, both in the twenty years of the republic and in the last two and a half years, could not take serious steps in the production and promotion of political literature about the state of women in the country. What is your analysis in this field?
Huma Saeed: Because there was no such platform in the society of Afghanistan. Today, of course, we see that such a platform is being formed to some extent. The production of theoretical work originates from reality and from the existing context in society. Both at home and abroad there are efforts to produce a kind of female political literature. Today’s unfortunate situation may just strengthen the platform needed for the creation of such literature.
Nimrokh: You mentioned that one of the slogans used by the international community to attack Afghanistan was of liberating Afghan women. But today we see that the international community has left Afghan women high and dry. In a more ideal situation, if these countries and organizations want to do something for our women, what can we expect from them?
Huma Saeed: I am one of those who neither at that time, nor today, believe in such a claim by the international community. But even people who were grateful to the international community for so-called saving the women of Afghanistan back then, have a critical view today. But I personally am not disappointed, because I had no hope for this claim from the beginning. Because real change happens from within society. What is the definition of global society? Under the umbrella of the world community are the United Nations, the European Union, micro and macro international organizations and countries. We have experienced the presence of all these in Afghanistan in the last twenty years. Each worked according to their plans and policies. Yesterday, the policy of some countries required them to intervene militarily and politically under the name of Afghanistan’s women’s freedom and overthrow a government; twenty years later, the same people return to power again. We should not forget that countries have geopolitical goals, never operating something of this scale out of true compassion. Therefore, countries followed their own policies and goals in Afghanistan. But at the level of individuals, there must have been those who really wanted to make a change with their work. There were also institutions that sincerely wanted to help the people of Afghanistan, and their working method was usually from the bottom up. I myself have experience when I was asked by a Canadian institution to evaluate the four-year work of their project in Afghanistan. At first, I was not optimistic and thought it was like other projects that are done in the name of women’s empowerment. But when I traveled to Afghanistan and got to know their work intimately, I saw that they were really able to inspire change. I talked to women who came from faraway provinces, for example from villages in Kandahar and Jalalabad, who spoke of the power and ability of women with all their heart and pride. I really saw a change in them. A change that was brought about by their own opinion, effort and struggle in the framework of the mentioned project.
Therefore, it is important what our definition of global society is. This term includes different levels with different strategies and functions. Another important issue is that real change is only possible from within. For example, the international community can help with financial and technical support. We still need this kind of support. But for any kind of long-term and real change, one should only be optimistic about change from within.
Nimrokh: One of the topics that was raised many times during the republican era was the topic of transitional justice. If we have a government that believes in transitional justice in the post-Taliban era, how can we ensure women’s rights in the transitional justice process?
Huma Saeed: The discussion and approach of transitional justice is very important in post-war countries and more important for Afghanistan. I think that even when the environment is favorable for the realization of transitional justice, Afghanistan will face many challenges compared to other countries. One reason is the long war in Afghanistan. But if we compare, Colombia was finally able to reach a peace agreement in 2016 after nearly 50 years of war. This tells us that even after long wars, it is possible to achieve transitional justice, which is badly needed in Afghanistan. Many of Afghanistan’s problems stem from the fact that we failed to implement transitional justice. Instead of bringing 2,000 human rights violators to trial, they were brought back to power and this strengthened the culture of impunity in the country. Apart from the length of the wars, what makes the case of Afghanistan very complicated is that Afghanistan has experienced several different political regimes, ideologically, one after the other without the implementation of transitional justice, including the treatment of war victims. Another complication in Afghanistan is the definition of victim/criminal. There were those who committed crimes in one period but became victims in the next period or vice versa. On the other hand, the range of violence in Afghanistan is so complex, extensive and multi-layered, more than any country in my eyes. It is true that, for example, the number of dead and disappeared in Colombia is much lower than in Afghanistan. In Afghanistan, the percentage of war victims is also very high. Despite all these challenges, if there is political will, justice is not impossible. On the contrary, it is an integral part of any political transformation towards peace and stable and democratic governance.
But if it is possible to implement transitional justice in the future of Afghanistan, the issue of women is undoubtedly one of the most important. In transitional justice mechanisms, unfortunately, the discussion of gender justice has been relatively marginalized. In Afghanistan, we have very few analysis, research and articles related to the situation of women during the war from the perspective of women. But in recent years, the work done by some publications, in addition to being journalism, is also a type of documentation, which can be considered very important work in the process of transitional justice. Of course, in the process of transitional justice, there should be a fact-finding commission as an official process, but until such a process is reached, this type of publication is also important and was not always present. We know very little about the role of women during the period of Russian aggression. At that time, there were women who resisted, were tortured, went to prison because of their political goals and thoughts; who went to the war fronts and participated in the resistance against the Russians. We know very little about them because they are not documented. During the civil wars, women suffered the most damage. Rapes and other horrific sexual and gender violence were committed by one tribe against women of another tribe, rarely documented. In the last twenty years, and especially in the last few years, there has been a lot of documentation. But during the civil wars or before, we had much less of such a thing. International institutions had a limited possibility to do this. But in the same documentaries, women’s voices were very weak, and little work has been done to narrate decades of wars from women’s point of view. In the future, if we can implement the mechanism of transitional justice in Afghanistan, at least the documents that have been collected in the last twenty years, both in the press and by official institutions, can help a lot. The experiences of other countries show the importance of this issue. As a transitional justice researcher, I believe that Afghanistan needs a victim-oriented transitional justice process based on gender justice. In the victim-centered discussion, we should always keep the lens of gender in mind. I believe that the burden of oppression that has been inflicted on women and children in the war is much heavier than other members of society. In the current war in Gaza, women and children, who do not have a role in the decision-making process of these wars, have suffered the most damage.
However, any transitional justice process faces many challenges. But we can use the experiences of other countries. For example, in the Gambia, a special mechanism to deal with sexual and gender-based violence has been included in the transitional justice process, which has helped to some extent to break some taboos and to deal with women who have been subjected to violence. Although such topics are very taboo in our society, today there are women who raise these issues.
Nimrokh: Earlier you used the term “gender apartheid” for the situation in Afghanistan. Efforts are underway to recognize gender apartheid as a crime against humanity. Do you think this identification is possible? And if possible, what effect does it have on the situation in Afghanistan?
Huma Saeed: This was perhaps the first time I used the term “gender apartheid” to describe what is happening in Afghanistan. I have closely followed this discussion at the international level and part of my research and work is related to gender apartheid and gender persecution. Sexual harassment is criminalized in the Rome Statute of 1998 as a crime against humanity and is a legal tool that we can use. However, gender apartheid has not been defined and criminalized at the international level, although efforts have been. But women inside Afghanistan say that they feel with their skin and bones that what is going on is gender apartheid. The time has come for us to work very seriously on criminalizing it. This process has started and I think most of the Afghan women are leading it. But in response to the question of whether gender apartheid will finally be criminalized or not and its impact on Afghan women, I must say that the process of criminalization at the level of international law is not a simple task. Especially since this debate is also a political debate for governments. When international laws are adopted, countries are obliged to comply with them. It is likely that its recognition in international laws will have an impact on the situation in Afghanistan. But we don’t know how long this process will last, and considering the political nature of the issue, it is not yet clear whether it will be possible to criminalize it in the future, although several countries, including the United States of America, have given the green light.
